A government big enough to give you everything you want is a
government big enough to take from you everything you have

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Original: 11/17/2008 5:33 PM
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Monday, November 17, 2008

A baby by any other name...

 

I know, abortion has been discussed and discussed ..but  I have personally found most people invest too much of their own agenda into the discussion, so an honest and thoughtful debate is rarely to be found and usually disintegrates into name calling and finger pointing.

In my last post, the "rights" of a fetus were  briefly discussed between Lowkey and I. And I am posting it as a new topic, because I would dearly like to expand the discussion. And I do not want the discussion to be merely about entrenched religious viewpoints, or entrenched socially engineered quiplets about women's rights.

What started this was a  discussion about a Private Member's bill put forward to Parliament by Conservative MP Ken Epp before the Canadian election was called and one that was debated in the CP Policy Convention this past weekend.. It received much notoriety in the press, and by the opposing parties, as a "dangerous " bill that would threaten women's rights to abortion on demand, because it would invest "human rights" to an unborn fetus in the case where the woman wanted her baby, and her baby was harmed in a violent act toward herself.

My question is this:

Do we invest  legal "rights" to a wanted unborn baby, introducing legislation that charges someone who kills a pregnant woman, with not one, but two homicides? While investing zero rights to a fetus that a woman does not want. This is the condundrum, amongst many others, that "progressive liberalism" has created.

An existential question as it were: can a fetus be defined objectively and in reality as a human being, only by the opinion of the woman who carries it?

 

 

 Posted 11/17/2008 5:33 PM - 325 Views - 16 eProps - 19 comments

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There's an old saying about having your cake and eating it, too. The feminists in our society would do well to consider it.
Posted 11/17/2008 5:52 PM by radicalramblings Xanga True Member Xanga Lifetime Member - reply

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It is has human DNA, it's human.

Posted 11/17/2008 6:59 PM by dropsofjupiterihh Xanga True Member - reply

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I figure it's a separate entity from the mother because it's a living entity with human DNA unique from both its mother and father. But leave it to feminists not to know the difference between living and dead.
Posted 11/17/2008 7:08 PM by intermodal - reply

Lindsay, it gets even worst than that.  I'm sorry because this goes slightly from your question.

A case in the States where a woman was pregnant and wanted the child.  Her boyfriend/husband wanted it aborted.  She refused so he hit her in her abdomen repeatedly and caused her to abort.  If a fetus is not human then he gets charged with assault and battery.  If a fetus IS human then he gets charged with murder as well.

In this case the woman refused to 'press charges' but the state that she lived in argued that while she could refuse to press charges where the assault and battery charge was concerned she could NOT make that decision for the unborn child.  The boyfriend/husband was tried for second degree murder and was convicted.

Having said that, not all states/States would take the stance that they would defend the rights of a fetus even if it's own mother would not.

My personal belief is that all fetuses want to live, by default.  Otherwise they would die in the womb. 

"Life, Liberty, and Good Governance".  Abortion on Demand violates all three.

Abortion is an extremely sloppy solution for living recklessly.  Almost the present population of Canada has been aborted since the '80's in North America because of the opinion of nearly that many women. 

Posted 11/17/2008 9:39 PM by iggy2shoes - reply

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@iggy2shoes - 

I would have to concur completely with your post. It is a baby, regardless of its stage of development or level of care necessary to sustain life. It was a great point to state that all babies want to live by default. I like that! And locally, there are similar laws protecting the unborn. There have been cases where criminals have been charged regarding an unborn baby. It's always seemed incredibly hypocritical of our legal system, but I'll take the double standard in this area.
Posted 11/18/2008 9:12 AM by alampi Xanga True Member - reply

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What I think are the two key deciding factors:

1] - Timing - A woman should have the option to abort as long as the fetus is not a viable sustainable human. Even if it required neonatal life support if it is capable of eventual self-sustained life and fully functional anatomy (mainly brain), then the fetus must be protected as a human being. This allows months from conception for a woman to decide - absolutely no late term abortions!

If the mother's life is at risk and it's a late term issue then the child is old enough to be on life support until it recovers.

2] Government - I'm against government controlling people's lives. Consider a government that forced women to carry every conception to full birth - even if conceived by rape or incest - wrong!

All governments reward people that pump out kids, even if they can't afford them. Instead of taxpayer $$$ going to provide abortions I'd rather see that same $$$ be used as incentives to NOT have children (that wouldn't be wanted or aborted anyway).

Tax credits for families that are small and get less as people pump out more kids. Paying for permanent birth control for either men or women is another idea, maybe even give a cash payment to each that gets "fixed".

We have too many people on this planet as it is, too many that pump out kids they can't afford, and a population that has proven itself to be irresponsible when it comes to procreation responsibilities.

BTW - if some ultra-religious fanatics want to force a conception to go full term then why are they not stepping up front to receive that child and take care of it? If these fanatics really valued the life of a child I don't think we'd have many foster homes.
Posted 11/18/2008 11:07 AM by JustaDog - reply

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iggy:  I remember that story, if it is the same one I am thinking of : http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0501/05/A01-50709.htm

But the girl was a willing participant  ..is this the same story, or a different one? In this one, the boyfriend was charged, but the girl was not, because under state law, the woman cannot be charged witrh criminal liability in an induced abortion. Figure THAT one out, if you can!!

Posted 11/19/2008 6:13 AM by simoncat1010 - reply

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Justadog:

I am not black and white on abortion. However, I do not agree with using abortion as birth control, neither am I in agreement with our tax dollars funding abortion on demand. Women would be a little more careful about birth control if they had to pay for the operation themselves. I am also sickened by the creation of this  "san fairy ann" attitude toward a conceived life...  a lack of regard toward an unborn life spreads itself toward all life. There was a story a while back about a woman who could not decide whether or not she wanted an abortion, waited too late until she was full term, and killed the baby as it was born, claiming she "aborted it". There are also cases of abortion centers 'aborting" full term viable babies, and  letting them die once delivered. What a bunch of morons we are.

"pumping out babies":  Mark Steyn might have a word with you about the changing demographics of this world. We in the western civilized world are reducing our population , while those in the rest of the world are heavily increasing theirs. And power is often based on demographics.  :P

Posted 11/19/2008 6:26 AM by simoncat1010 - reply

The case I'm thinking  about happened in Texas in the 1990's as I recall.  I'll see if I can find a link to it for you.
Posted 11/19/2008 7:15 AM by iggy2shoes - reply

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It can't be both ways.  The fetus is alive or it is not.  Scientifically, for something to be recognized as life, it must be able to reproduce itself, in must ingest nourishment and excrete waste products

According to the bible, the soul is in the blood, and according to medical science, the fetus does not start receiving its blood supply until about 18 days after conception.  Without that blood supply, the fetus can not ingest nourishment or excrete waste products in anyway we normally associate with human beings. It can, however, perform a form or replication via cellular division, and  exchange fluids through the cells' membrane walls  So we have to allow that the fetus is alive.  And we cannot deny that it has a soul when its blood supply is in place. 

Posted 11/19/2008 6:38 PM by thereluctantsinger Xanga True Member Xanga Premium Member - reply

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"only by the opinion of the woman who carries it" kind of negates the objectivity of it wouldn't you say?

@JustaDog - 

I disagree. I do think we have too many people in cities using a cities resources and one would assume by extrapolation that the earth is overcrowded. Especially if you're sitting in traffic on a Friday afternoon. In Los Angeles. You usually don't hear that argument from someone in Montana. Unless it's someone who want's everyone to stay the hell out of Montana.
Posted 11/19/2008 8:51 PM by followfreedom Xanga True Member Xanga Premium Member - reply

"Look, I got two daughters  ... I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby."    Spoken like a president-elect.  I wonder what his two daughters might want.  Anyway, it's not only the decision of the woman carrying a child who makes the 'choice'.   It also says volumes about his own morals.   Babies as punishment.  I wonder how many of our own mothers consider us punishment. 
Posted 11/20/2008 9:17 AM by iggy2shoes - reply

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Do we invest legal "rights" to a wanted unborn baby, introducing legislation that charges someone who kills a pregnant woman, with not one, but two homicides? While investing zero rights to a fetus that a woman does not want. This is the condundrum, amongst many others, that "progressive liberalism" has created.

the distinction as it now exists is more on par with property rights. callous as it may sound in this context: when you willingly and legally discard something it is no crime, but when someone takes it from you against your will, it is a crime.

although unsavory for those pursuing the larger issue, the inconsistency you refer to could be solved with legislation specifically addressing crimes resulting in the loss of an unborn child that would replace the charge of murder. i know that's not satisfactory for this discussion, but the general treatment of that issue is not inconsistent with the legal view of a fetus as the property of the woman bearing it. so still, i think the real issue is not that there is a double standard, but that the fetus is something that can legally be discarded.

@followfreedom - 

depending on their size and position in the food chain, animals require a certain range of land for their support. while certainly there are issues for individual metropolitan areas, the question of global overpopulation is not about crowds in any single location. it's about whether or not the per capita range has been too greatly diminished.
Posted 11/21/2008 3:51 PM by WyomingSheepRanch - reply

Children do not 'belong' to their parents.  They are not property.  They belong to their parents in a moral sense (this is my daughter/son),but not in a legal sense (I own this person and may do with him/her as I wish).  Test this by fathering a child then in a few years discard that child.  I imagine the full outrage of your social group will fall upon your head unless you do it in the manner that many states have legalized  although your community will likely still see you as persona non grata.  One cannot toss them out a window or place them in the garbage and expect to just walk away.

One last observation. A human rights organization that does not make its highest priority the protection of innocent people is not a human rights organization.

Posted 11/24/2008 6:37 PM by iggy2shoes - reply

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Children do not 'belong' to their parents. They are not property.

you appear to have misunderstood what i said. nevertheless, you are attaching a definition to the fetus that does not legally exist. an unborn child is, in the eyes of the law, as much an individual's property as their liver or spleen. while the murder charge for the loss of a fetus in an attack is inconsistent with this view, that is the extent of the inconsistency.

A human rights organization that does not make its highest priority the protection of innocent people is not a human rights organization.

there are lots of types of innocent people.
Posted 11/26/2008 9:56 AM by WyomingSheepRanch - reply

Not all bits have equal value.

Carl Sagan

Posted 11/29/2008 9:47 AM by iggy2shoes - reply

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Where we have strong emotions, we're liable to fool ourselves.

Carl Sagan
Posted 11/30/2008 11:51 AM by WyomingSheepRanch - reply

"Aw, shit...."

Wiley Coyote

Posted 11/30/2008 2:10 PM by iggy2shoes - reply

"this will mek western pipples 'ead explode with grin house guesses" Borat Dion
Posted 12/4/2008 2:51 PM by iggy2shoes - reply


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